What have Atheists done for us lately?

The post below is an email that was sent to me regarding my comments on Compassion, the Christian charity helping poor children in Africa.  I have replaced the senders name and changed some other identifying material to protect their identity.  I think it important to discuss some of the issues they raise openly. 

 

Hey Sean,
Tried to comment on your blog post about this but got a wee bit carried away so thought I would email you instead.
All the best
Esmeralda

Esmeralda, thank you for taking the time and effort to write me a lengthy email.  I have decided to post your email here as it was you original intention to post openly(but the comments system has a word limit) and I think you raise some really good talking points. 

I assume that this email was prompted by one of these posts below, please tell me if I am incorrect.

Gloria Jeans appears to have dropped Mercy Ministries…

The Evangelical back scratching network – Gloria Jeans, Compassion and Mercy Ministries

Compassion Australia quietly removing reference to Mercy Ministries?

 

Subject: Mercy, Compassion and Gloria Jeans. Your favourite axis of evil

Just a couple of things that need a bit of clarification.  Gloria Jeans is NOT owned by Hillsong.  The people who do attend the church.  Would this be getting the same attention if the folks who own Gloria Jeans went to the local Anglican church?  The church and Gloria Jeans are not connected, other than the owners of the business making a decision to support the church.  It’s their right to do so, just as it’s your right to complain about it.  No bigee.

I have never claimed that Gloria Jeans was owned by Hillsong, merely pointed out that their owners/directors are reasonably high profile members of the church – that there is by appearances quite a strong fellowship or network between the directors of Mercy, Hillsong and Gloria Jeans.  There is nothing criminal about this they are perfectly within their rights to make friendships and mutually supportive networks and like Gloria Jeans force franchisees to purchase from Christian suppliers who charge up to 10 % more than the market rate. 

The one thing that annoys me is that they are not terribly open about it and it appears to influence the behaviour, decisions or actions of the three companies

Mercy is done and dusted, while it didn’t help some girls, it helped others.  It made no bones about being a christian run organisation.  This fact was never hidden.  I personally have always worried about the lack of truly professional counselling staff but the establishment of Mercy here in Sydney was done out of a willingness to do something positive.  Services for the mentally ill in this country are woeful at best, my own family has suffered terribly due to a mentally ill relative.  Mental health care is underfunded, under resourced and really unrecognised buy the community at large.  Trying to find crisis accommodation alone is a nightmare.

Mercy may be done and dusted in Australia, but in America they operate with impunity, pushing their ideologically unsound form of Christianity, attacking evidenced based psychology/psychiatry.  It did say it was a Christian service but there is a world of difference between the Christianity that Mercy pushed with their belief in demonic oppression and exorcism and say the services provided by Catholic Centrecare. 

It was only once you got off the plane and into their loving arms that you got a appreciation for what sort of “Christians” they were.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.   Mercy helped some and psychologically abused others and still does in the US and elsewhere. This is because they are focussed on ideology rather than on evidence for service provision.  I will continue to point this out because to sit idly by and shrug my shoulders saying “ah well i guess they are doing some good” is not good enough.

I am very sorry for you own experience with mental Illness.  My job before relocating to South Australia was working within a community based and consumer (ie those suffering from mental illness) driven Metal Health organisation.  I am well aware of the shortage of crisis accommodation and indeed long term care provisions for those people without family.   Perceptions of mental illness are changing, slowly and while state services were under strain due to the issues above, perhaps insufficient/inadequate is a better descriptor. 

There was a lot of hope going behind the establishment of Mercy here in Australia, but without professional backup to really make it work.  They were screwed at the start. But at least they tried to do something.  They may have been misguided, we all may question the methods, but they tried to do something.
Quite frankly, with the state of mental health care in Australia, something was better than nothing.

Any ideas why they may not have got that professional backing?  Perhaps because of their unethical, unprofessional and baseless methodology imported from the States.  Have you read the garbage contained within Restoring the Foundations? It should make every Christians stomach turn – misogynistic, psychotic rubbish – makes me sick reading it.  Something was better than nothing.  How about something based on evidence, whose main goal was the mental health of the patient and not turning the patient to Christ.

 

I am really interested, please let me know if there are any atheist run organisations providing mental health care solutions or trying to?  I am not being flip, or sarcastic … I really want to know.  Its important that community groups advocate for folks who can’t advocate for themselves, and if you know of an atheist group who is actively doing that, Cool!  Do they have a website?  Where are they based?  What part of the mentally ill community are they targeting to help?

I know of plenty of Atheists, who work alongside Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and wiccans in evidence based community Mental Health services.  Should we as Atheists form or own group to cater to the mentally ill rather then support these other groups?  I don’t think so, because for every group that pops its head up gets funding, or donations, it chews up a large amount of that money in infrastructure, administration, pay etc.  I prefer to work in a multi belief workplace where the care is given based on what works, where what works is more heavily influenced by evidence and not ideology.

I don’t criticise Mercy because I am an Atheist and they are Christian.  I do it because I am human and I can see them doing harm to other humans.  Atheism is really just the absence of belief in gods.  That is really the only thing that ties us as a group, together.  We are not out to convert, we generally  just want a level field (secularism) where all ideas can be placed on the table, and where people with many beliefs make decisions based on the evidence.

So Mercy are gone now, you guys can heave a sigh of relief, have a crow and let it go.  IT would be great to think that there would be a push in the atheist movement to provide some services too.  Much needed.

I think that Atheists should support secular(note Secular does not equal Atheist) services in operation, or push for secular services to be developed in areas that need it.  I am not a fan of taking money that could go directly to the needy and pumping it into setting up and organisation.  That and we as a society need to be working together, non-believers and believers.

Mercy may be gone (from Australia), some women may have achieved a sense of closure.  Some will live with the trauma on a daily basis for a long time to come.  I will continue to follow and comment on Mercy until they change what they do.

As for Compassion.  A family member started working for them a zillion years ago, 1980, when they were a tiny little office in a garage in suburban Newcastle.  Compassion Australia is part of Compassion International, a company that is based in Colorado Springs, USA.  Would have been great if it could have been an aussie thing, born here but it wasn’t, there you go.

Back then, there was no Gloria Jeans (I think) and no Hillsong.  My Family and everyone who worked for Compassion slogged their guts out for children in the third world.  Dad is retired but he still does.  They are not a secret religious organisation.  They don’t advertise, never have because advertising costs a lot of money and the organisation decided that the money was better spent on the kids and the aid programs.  The advertising they get is by word of mouth and folks like my dad whose job it was to check everything was above board and working fine on the overseas projects as well as travelling around the country, telling churches of all denominations about the work they do.  That’s how The gloria Jeans folks would have heard about Compassion, when one the guys came to hillsong or one of the many hundreds of churches around this country and told them about the feeding and sponsorship programes.  If they then decided to advertise for Compassion through their stores, well … bonza.  Maybe some folks who would never have had sponsored a child might do it.

Never said that it was a secret religious organisation. On the other hand its not really open about its evangelical christian focus either, you sort of have to read between the lines and translate the Christianese.  Then on the other hand the Hillsong album give away on the front page is a pretty clear indication.

As for advertising, I am sure have seen in kind advertising.  So perhaps it’s that they do advertise, but just don’t have to pay for it which is great – nothing like free press.

Now as to how Gloria Jeans found out about Compassion, well unless they tell us we don’t know.  Your explanation is plausible but I think it more likely that considering their Evangelical Ownership, and the relatively small network of directors sitting on multiple boards – that Compassion was selected because of its biblical worldview – but hey I might be wrong.

You might absolutely hate the whole idea of a religious organisation pushing child sponsor ship, again your right but please point me in the direction of an atheist run body that does the same thing, at the same level?  Sponsorship of children provides them with food and education.  I have seen this happen to at least a dozen children, who have grown up with a future in countries were there was nothing for them.

I don’t hate the idea of child sponsorship being pushed by a religious organisation.  I hate that the sponsorship comes with money in the one hand and a twisted biblical worldview in the other. Its developing brand loyalty at a young age. An the effects of that brand loyalty and Christian instruction is born out in Uganda where with church complicity, they are attempting to bring in the death penalty for Homosexuality.

Ever been to Hermansburg?  The evangelical Lutheran missionaries, against the will of the parents targeted children for prosletysation, beginning the slow destruction of a culture. Now the Lutherans have been replaced by other evangelisers preaching hell fire and damnation.

Now I have mentioned before that I think it better to support secular charities that are currently working in the field rather than to set up an atheist one. To that end UNICEF and Save the Children would be particularly child focussed ones that an atheist or secularist might choose.

But if you guys are all sponsoring kids here in Aus through Barnados, whoops, originally christian run sorry about that.  so if you are sponsoring kids either here at home or overseas and putting your money where your mouth is and making a difference all at the same time … More power to you!

It is interesting that you bring up this idea of charities being formed by Christians or being  historically Christian or even perhaps  that there are an abundance of Christian charities. Side note: why is it that Christians who all believe in the same thing need to setup different charities doing the same thing?

There are a couple of points to make here – Historically Christianity was the only game in town – anyone who wanted to be someone had to attend church for social reasons.  Non-believers were outcasts, communists, heathens, devil worshipers immoral souls who could not be trusted.  So think about being a non believer trying to set up a community based charity in that context.  Then note that even government favours religious charities, for some reason it’s thought that by default, a religious charity will always be focussed on what is best for the community and beneficial to it.  The most stunning example that comes to mind is with Richard Dawkins trying to set up a charity organisation for the promotion of science where he had to prove that promoting an understanding of science was beneficial, yet a religious organisations had no obstacles at all.

Now add to the notion of a long history and government favour, the concept that over time you build corporate knowledge, and networks that enable you to get things done more efficiently. This gives the religious an enormous advantage in capturing the charity market.

Its really important that all of us, regardless of our philosophical and religious beliefs can come together and sort out the future for some of this planet’s most vulnerable.  BTW, you made a point about "abstinence" when you were pulling apart the post of one of the Compassion Sponsors up above. MOst governments in Africa at the moment are trying very hard with no help from the West I might add, to stem the tide of Aids which is endemic through out the continent.   The key to survival in Africa has a lot to do with how many sexual partners you have.  Poor folks in Africa have nothing, absolutely nothing except a good root with whoever is willing.  Pity, that can cost countless lives and leave millions of kids orphaned.  And does.  We just don’t like talking about it anymore. Abstinence saves lives but its a hard barrow to push (you think!?!  :  )

I like your first line here.  It is really important that regardless of our belief or philosophy that we come together and determine what works based on the evidence. Compassion’s views on aids prevention, is, if their website is any indication – simplistic.  The epidemic is a complex problem compounded by a number of factors.  Yes abstinence is the only true method of safe sex, funny thing is,  you have to get people to apply it.  Which due to the way we have evolved (successful due to our ability to breed) just does not work in the real world-  see how well it works in a first world country like the US i.e. it doesn’t.  When I last looked into the evidence (6 months ago) the programs that seemed to have the most success were those that promoted abstinence till marriage, being faithful (reducing numbers of partners) and condom use. 

But Africa has a lot of issues that effect aids the demonization and conspiracy theory’s promoted by the church  surrounding anti-viral drugs and the promotion of alternative medicine modalities by some governments.

The cutting of aid, US and Australian, to bodies that even mention comprehensive sex education or abortion caused some groups that were helping to simply fold.

The refusal to support distribution of condoms is a death sentence.  It is effectively saying, if you can’t stop yourself from being human, and partaking in the one activity that gives pleasure for free, when you have nothing else, well it’s your fault.

Don’t even get me started on those in the community that don’t often have the ability to refuse sex to men.

 

Bag all you want, call me stupid an educated or imply that I am mentally ill because I believe.  BUt my pet, when your money goes where you mouth is and your fellow theists are prepared to roll up their sleeves and get dirty trying to fix some of the poo that a lot of folks have to live with around the globe then you and yours will be perfectly within your rights to bag as much as you want and like.  Thinking about something and being smart (and lofty too) is a whole lot different to being proactive.  A proactive, community minded atheist.  I’d buy that for a dollar!  You have an amazing platform here to sow seeds in your community to really make a massive difference to the lives of kids both here and overseas.  Guess you have to want to though … although it’s easier to leave it up to others and bag them for it.

Woah there Nelly! Stupid? Uneducated? Mentally Ill?  What an interesting way to frame your point.  It seems that you have got a bit wound up here Pet, a bit condescending.  I am going to try not to take offense

From what I can see you are reasonably well educated, reasonably articulate.  As to your mental state I won’t venture an opinion on that. If you were to say you were Jesus or god I might have cause to think you ill though.   On your belief in God I simply think you’re mistaken.

Bagging to my mind is criticism without merit. So I will let my readers decide if I bag or not.

Now as to putting my money where my mouth is and your slight against atheists.  What makes you think that Atheists don’t roll up their sleeves and get dirty.  The fact that they don’t dance around like… I don’t know… some Christians spruiking how good they are? Considering that being atheist still carries with it a negative stigma how would you even know you were working with one?

Hmmm…showing you a community minded atheist. The irony of stating that to an atheist that has been campaigning for justice for young Christian women is lost on you I assume. 

Do you understand how much of a bigot you sound like when you say “A proactive, community minded atheist.  I’d buy that for a dollar! ?”  As if an absence of belief in god somehow means that you can’t or won’t be involved in the community.  How serious were you about “buying that for a dollar” I am quite sure that I can lighten your wallet. 

Personally I don’t like to spout off about the work I do but since you seem utterly convinced that you are unlikely to come across an atheist who isn’t a selfish, aloof, Christian hater,  here is some of the community minded work I have done: 

• In my teens I volunteered for Saint Vincent de Paul.
• I have a rare blood plasma, so I donate blood.
• I am registered as an organ donor.
• I helped start and run a community club for teens from 1999-2001
• I am volunteer fire fighter, which means for no money I put out bush fires, house fires and attend fatal car crashes.
• For last 5 years I taught Martial Arts and Self Defence to the community for free. 
• Most recently I spent 3 of my weekends helping construct a community walking trail

Now you see I will be honest and say all of these community activities gave me much joy.  I find that as much as you give, you get back in smiles and appreciation – this is why I don’t like trumpeting the good work that I do – I may not get paid in money but sometimes a smile is worth more than a $50 note.  But hey that’s just me. Some other Atheists to check out would be the Sydney Atheists group who have a yearly blood drive and the many community minded atheists that read my blog.

Atheists are human with inherent compassion empathy for other humans.  Atheism makes no stipulations about behaviour, it has no creed,  for that you would have to look toward Humanists or Buddhists(yes atheists in some cases).  Those of us that do good work do  it because it is benefical to the community, not because we want to spread an atheist dogma.

Compassion would be glad to let you know the corporate structure, and none of them get paid by Gloria Jeans.  I am sure they would be more then willing to chat.  Do company directors in no religious organisations get paid for the work?  Why can’t christians?  I can tell you right now the salaries earned by executives in Compassion is a small fraction of their secular counterparts because they do what they do because it’s needed.  And the money goes to the programs.  Again they can tell you that.

Never claimed that they got paid by Gloria Jeans.  I merely asked the question as to how much thought went into choosing a charity.  It seems that Gloria Jeans ( an evangelical Christian business that doesn’t advertise that fact) went with a charity that matches their biblical worldview.  How many young women who visit Gloria Jeans are aware of compassion’s anti condom and anti abortion stance?  Never said there was anything wrong with getting paid either.  Now as to Compassion executives getting paid less than secular counterparts, what’s your point.  I have worked in community organisations where you will get paid nearly half that of the private sector – I chose to do the work.  And when you mean secular, don’t forget that those executives are Christians, Atheists, etc. working in an organisations that are generally delivering evidence based programs. 

One thing that does concern me is that Mark Zschech one of the former directors of Mercy, who has been ordered to pay money to victims, is also a member of the Compassion board.  What also saddens me that Compassion seem to have only cut ties to Mercy when they folded not when the scandal broke and certainly not because they thought Mercy was doing the wrong thing.

I am really looking forward to seeing the details of the atheist welfare organisations you know of and giving me their web addies, it going to be great to see the programs they have in the third world and up in the remote communities here at home.

Really?  I think you were being a little disingenuous when you said you weren’t being flippant.  It seems to me your tone has an touch of smug superiority but hey I will give you the benefit of the doubt.  As to those atheist charities, well like I said we are not out to convert you – just to ensure that we all act according to what works and to that end we’d rather be working in secular organisations alongside the religious who have the good sense to drop the biblical world view when it contradicts the evidence.

This is cool, love your blog Esmeralda.

Thanks Esmeralda

Related posts:

1. The Evangelical back scratching network – Gloria Jeans, Compassion and Mercy Ministries Now while Gloria Jeans has pulled their funding and...
2. Gloria Jeans appears to have dropped Mercy Ministries… although it must have been whisper quite as this...
3. Compassion Australia quietly removing reference to Mercy Ministries? One of my readers notes that an article I...