Random Reader: What?… What ? Stop the Australian Vaccination Network?
Have you gone mad Sean? Why on earth would you want to stop an organisation that promotes Vaccination?
Sean: It doesn’t
Reader: Ke ?
Sean: It’s against Vaccination. It’s Pro homeopathy/reflexology/fuckwitology
Reader: But the title?
Sean: Yeah I know. That frankly is where the deception starts.
Please sign the petition at Stop The Australian Vaccination Network
From the Petiton site:
The Australian Vaccination Network propagates misinformation, telling parents they should not vaccinate their children against such killer diseases as measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough and polio.
They lie to their members and the general public and after the death of a 4 week old child from whooping cough their members sent a barrage of hate mail to the child’s grieving parents.
The dangerous rhetoric and lies of the AVN must be stopped. They must not have a voice in Australia any longer.
They claim that:
- Vaccines contain mercury♦
- A child’s risk of injury from certain vaccines is 100 times grater than the risk of injury from the disease
- Vaccines are a major cause of suffering and death
- Certain vaccines cause autism
- It is better for a child to contract diseases such as measles, mumps and rubella rather than be vaccinated against them.
- Children can be vaccinated using homeopathy.
One would think that this organisation presents as great a risk to the Australian population as say Bikie Gangs, yet they are allowed to misrepresent medical treatment and profit from selling of homeopathic potions.
The AVN would like us to think that life is pretty black and white – the little guy versus big pharma. Life is just not that simple. Companies whether they hock medicine or homeopathic potions are precisely that, companies, out to make money. Sure big companies like Bayer have behaved unconscionably in the past and will do in the future no doubt. It does not then follow that Homeopathic companies will be better.
Indeed, at least we know that medicines contain active ingrediates and not just water.
♦ Some vaccines may contain Thimerosal which metabolizes into ethylmercury, not methylmercury, a mistake commonly made by pro-disease anti-vaxers who claim that the amount of mercury that used to be in vaccine exceeded EPA exposure guidelines.
Those guidelines were for methylmercury, a compound that has a half-life in the body of several weeks to months and is often found in fish or other environmental exposures. Ethylmercury, on the other hand, has a half-life of a few days to about a week, meaning that it is not in the body long enough for it to build up to toxic levels from vaccination to vaccination. [source]
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So basically, the AVN is to medicine as Scientology is to religion?
Just read your bits about ethylmercury and methyl mercury while doing a bit of research into both sides of the debate. Just wondering if Sean the Blognaut would be willing to participate in a scientific trial and undertake regular intravenous doses of ethyl mercury over say, a two to four year period, so I can find out if if it will have any bad effects on him before I expose my kids to it? This would provide some scientific rationale to the whole argument, some of which seems quite lacking from where I sit?
Hi Jando,
Thanks for dropping in. It's a pity that you seem to want to make it personal, but I suppose that's what happens when the AVN starts fear mongering and parents rightly start to feel a bit worried about their children. I applaud the concern you display for your children.
The point about ethylmercury is moot because its been removed from the final product anyway. But your argument breaks down into a challenge, that really is a bit juvenile when you unpack it.
Would I submit to a trial? The problem here is that I am an adult, I am one person – I wouldn't extrapolate the results of a one person trial to a population. I don't think you were really suggesting that though were you? Perhaps the issue here is that people are not generally scientifically literate.
I am fully vaccinated and will continue to vaccinate myself.
My suggestion is that you do more reading from reputable sources.
Thanks for your input Sean,
There was nothing really personal about it, but I can see where you are coming from. My point is basically that
we all make choices about our own health safety well being etc and that as parents and adults who have children we all have rights to make a choice about what we think is in the best interests of our children. When it comes to to deciding wether or not to vaccinate, I would suggest that the vast majority of those who do vacicnate their children do so with limited or no research into what is actaully being administered to them. This does not make them evil bad etc becuase they do, and nor would I suggest the AVN promote that viewpoint either. Most parents who choose to vaccinate ( my own three young children are vaccinated by the way). Neither should non vaccinating parents be branded as evil or bad or deluded or what have you. Vaccinating is NOT bad, Not Vaccinating is NOT bad either. However, there is something to be said about accepting with blind faith and inherent trust everyhting that we are told by the so called Big Pharm…an industry riddled with scandal, corporate greed etc….not unlike many corps out there ( James Hardie execs for instance who were willing to lie and cheat for the sake of shareholder return.
My central tenet is that all these products (vaccines) need transparent and independent longitudinal tests, like most therapeutic goods and medicines before they are prescribed and sometimes made (in the US) compulsory. Many wonder drugs seem to take years and years to come to the market, and having been a shareholder of several Biotech companies, (including flu jab makers Biota) I have seen how long the process is for these guys. Why do the rules change for CSL who have alreadyt sold to our government21,000,000 doses of an unyet proven or tested flu vax. We MUST ask questions about these things. This website is clear evidence that free speech is alive and well, and that should be preserved,as should the right to choose or decline a medical procedure. These dialogues are what is needed, not fear mongering from either side of the fence.
Jando,
This
Just wondering if Sean the Blognaut would be willing to participate in a scientific trial and undertake regular intravenous doses of ethyl mercury over say, a two to four year period, so I can find out if if it will have any bad effects on him before I expose my kids to it.
follwed by this,
Most parents who choose to vaccinate ( my own three young children are vaccinated by the way).
leads me to think that you are concern trolling, taking the piss and/or blowing smoke up my arse.
Nevertheless in the spirit of good discussion I will talk to your other points.
we all make choices about our own health safety well being etc and that as parents and adults who have children we all have rights to make a choice about what we think is in the best interests of our children.
That holds until what you do or don't do effects others. At that point, in my opinion it is no longer an individual right, but you bare a shared responsibility to your community.
When it comes to to deciding wether or not to vaccinate, I would suggest that the vast majority of those who do vacicnate their children do so with limited or no research into what is actaully being administered to them.
What leads you to this conclusion? An unfounded assertion at this stage I am afraid.
This does not make them evil bad etc becuase they do, and nor would I suggest the AVN promote that viewpoint either. Most parents who choose to vaccinate ( my own three young children are vaccinated by the way). Neither should non vaccinating parents be branded as evil or bad or deluded or what have you.
Who is labeling non-vaccinaters bad or evil. The AVN is an organisation spreading misinformation. I see parents who decide not to vaccinate as misinformed. I see the AVN as an insidious blight on public health, deliberately deceptive about its motives and headed by someone without any qualifications coming close to what is needed to be offering the advice she does. The AVN claims to be prochoice yet blatantly sells shirts with "Love them protect them never inject them – avn.org.au" on them.
Vaccinating is NOT bad, Not Vaccinating is NOT bad either
So are you saying the evidence is equally balanced. Or are we talking morally/ethically here. BAsed on the evidence, vaccinating your child protects them from the most severe effects of the illnesses it is designed to. Not vaccinating, under vaccinating results in outbreaks, severe illness and death. So not vaccinating is harmful.
For the action of vaccinating/not vaccinating to be ethically right/wrong I think people have to be properly informed. A person who decides not to vaccinate due to scaremongering and misinformation is not in possession of the correct information and I would consider them to be acting unethically. The willful ignorance of Meryl Dorey is another matter.
However, there is something to be said about accepting with blind faith and inherent trust everyhting that we are told by the so called Big Pharm…an industry riddled with scandal, corporate greed etc….not unlike many corps out there ( James Hardie execs for instance who were willing to lie and cheat for the sake of shareholder return.
You assume that I do. I am well aware that Pharmacuetical companies like all companies are concerned chiefly with the bottom line and that this may pressure them to act unethically even criminally. I wonder do you apply this same thinking to the alternative medicine industry?
My central tenet is that all these products (vaccines) need transparent and independent longitudinal tests, like most therapeutic goods and medicines before they are prescribed and sometimes made (in the US) compulsory. Many wonder drugs seem to take years and years to come to the market, and having been a shareholder of several Biotech companies, (including flu jab makers Biota) I have seen how long the process is for these guys.
Ah yes always more tests?
Can you be a bit more specific as to the design of the particular longitudinal study? Which vaccine? What we would be examining in particular?
Why do the rules change for CSL who have alreadyt sold to our government21,000,000 doses of an unyet proven or tested flu vax. We MUST ask questions about these things.
Have the rules changed? CSL are currently trialing the vaccine(trials for kids should have started by now), the government has placed an order conditional on that vaccine being effective and safe. CSL is an Australian company that produces etheylmercury free vaccines, in multi or single dose format.
Oh and we have a pandemic on our hands 40 dead so far in Aus. But you would rather we do a longitudinal study and just let the flu rum on and mutate?
we all make choices about our own health safety well being etc and that as parents and adults who have children we all have rights to make a choice about what we think is in the best interests of our children.
That holds until what you do or don't do effects others. At that point, in my opinion it is no longer an individual right, but you bare a shared responsibility to your community.
When it comes to to deciding wether or not to vaccinate, I would suggest that the vast majority of those who do vacicnate their children do so with limited or no research into what is actaully being administered to them.
What leads you to this conclusion? An unfounded assertion at this stage I am afraid.
This does not make them evil bad etc becuase they do, and nor would I suggest the AVN promote that viewpoint either. Most parents who choose to vaccinate ( my own three young children are vaccinated by the way). Neither should non vaccinating parents be branded as evil or bad or deluded or what have you.
Who is labeling non-vaccinaters bad or evil. The AVN is an organisation spreading misinformation. I see parents who decide not to vaccinate as misinformed. I see the AVN as an insidious blight on public health, deliberately deceptive about its motives and headed by someone without any qualifications coming close to what is needed to be offering the advice she does. The AVN claims to be prochoice yet blatantly sells shirts with "Love them protect them never inject them – avn.org.au" on them.
Vaccinating is NOT bad, Not Vaccinating is NOT bad either
So are you saying the evidence is equally balanced. Or are we talking morally/ethically here. BAsed on the evidence, vaccinating your child protects them from the most severe effects of the illnesses it is designed to. Not vaccinating, under vaccinating results in outbreaks, severe illness and death. So not vaccinating is harmful.
For the action of vaccinating/not vaccinating to be ethically right/wrong I think people have to be properly informed. A person who decides not to vaccinate due to scaremongering and misinformation is not in possession of the correct information and I would not consider them to be acting unethically. The willful ignorance of Meryl Dorey is another matter.
However, there is something to be said about accepting with blind faith and inherent trust everyhting that we are told by the so called Big Pharm…an industry riddled with scandal, corporate greed etc….not unlike many corps out there ( James Hardie execs for instance who were willing to lie and cheat for the sake of shareholder return.
You assume that I do. I am well aware that Pharmacuetical companies like all companies are concerned chiefly with the bottom line and that this may pressure them to act unethically even criminally. I wonder do you apply this same thinking to the alternative medicine industry?
My central tenet is that all these products (vaccines) need transparent and independent longitudinal tests, like most therapeutic goods and medicines before they are prescribed and sometimes made (in the US) compulsory. Many wonder drugs seem to take years and years to come to the market, and having been a shareholder of several Biotech companies, (including flu jab makers Biota) I have seen how long the process is for these guys.
Ah yes always more tests?
Can you be a bit more specific as to the design of the particular longitudinal study? Which vaccine? What we would be examining in particular?
Why do the rules change for CSL who have alreadyt sold to our government21,000,000 doses of an unyet proven or tested flu vax. We MUST ask questions about these things.
Have the rules changed? CSL are currently trialing the vaccine(trials for kids should have started by now), the government has placed an order conditional on that vaccine being effective and safe. CSL is an Australian company that produces etheylmercury free vaccines, in multi or single dose format.
Oh and we have a pandemic on our hands 40 dead so far in Aus. But you would rather we do a longitudinal study and just let the flu run on and mutate?
edited left out not in paragraph on ethics morality
Thanks Sean for continuing to bring reason to your side of the argument,
Interesting that you suggest we have a mroal obligation as a member of the community to vaccinate and protect everyone from unpleasant diseases. As a kid i was not vacicnated against measles or chicken pox, or the flu for that matter…no-one was, kids got chicken pox and then got over it. It was also considered an important catalysts for further cognitive development taking place. Anyway, google up yourself some states from the Australian Giv. census data about pertussis vax rates and corresponding cases. When the vax rate was around 80% there were less than a 1000 reported cases per year, then vax rates pushed around 90-95% and there were 1round 14,000 reported cases in one year alone. Also somewhere over 70% of pertsussis cases are in those fully vaccinated against it. Thus, and maybe due to the changing nature of these viruses, these universal vaccines may not have the efficacy they claim.
As for the swine flu pandemic, check out the details of the US outbreak in 1976. 4 confirmed cases, one death, 4000 confirmed vaccine injuries and 25 confirmed deaths and $3.5 billion in compensation claims. The vax campaign in the US at the time was also cut short after 10 weeks, well short of the target of jabbing the whole population.
Vaccinating is NOT bad, Not Vaccinating is NOT bad either…as for this, as long as you have made an educated and informed choice based on a range of information and you are prepared to accept thye consequences of either choice.
My other point of issue re big pharma is that bottom line does come first…(check the spike in Biota’s sp since H1N1 appeared on the scene…kerching! Yet why do do we allow these companies to be be free from litigation by law. In the US for instance you can sue the Federal Gov for vax injury (each dose of vax is excised to pay for the compo fund…thus they must cause issues sometimes otherwise there’d be no need for it?!?!) and yet there is very llimited legal responsibilty placed on Merck, Baxter etc for the safety (and efficacy) of their product. Also, try and get your local GP to sign over any kind of liability for administering you with a vax (a medical procedure)..)….yes another challenge Sean…hahaha .this can be a difficult .
As for Alternative medicines, for sure there are crackpots weirdos and freaks peddling all kinds of rubbish out there, but if you make EDUCATED INFORMED CHOICES about your own behaviou and how you spend your hard earned doughr, then so be it. i amnsure some of what they offer helps, I am sure some is about as helpful as prescribing antibiotics for a common cold.
As for blowing smoke up your arse…tee hee!
Not quite. Both Scientology and mainstream religion are garbage.
Agreed Rex
This reminds me of a youtube clip I saw of a New York lawyer debating vaccination with a Christian couple…let me see if I can dig it up…nope can't find it
It was an interested series of clips with a lawyer debating with a Christian couple on why they do not want their child to be immunized (it is a requirement for their child to attend public school there).
They are also now claiming that having chemo and radiotherapy is worse than actual cancer. These people aren't interested in critical analysis at all, they just set themselves up to be contrary to medical science and as such any woo will do.
What?! That's ridiculous.
My dad went through chemo and radio therapy almost 2 years ago for cancer in his throat. Now he is a lot better, and can actually eat solid food as opposed to having to drink nutrition shakes all the time. I find that utterly despicable that they have the nerve to claim such a thing. :@ Anything to support their backwards viewpoints.
wow —-just like medieval england, asylum centres, insane centres, diagnosing happy people as mad cause they did not conform to victorian england.
removing parts of brains to alleviate depression.
the witch hunts of medieval europe.
wow –you must think we live in a fairy tale world when health is put put profits.
and the next thing you will tell me is that the fall of rome actually created civilisation , but destroyed it.
i wonder when scientists are given a grant to push a vaccine and get all these perks, do you actually think they are going to state the vaccine is problematic when it is found??
of course not.
get out of your medieval mindset. and look into your history of genocide, folly medicine and barbarity.
and wonder maybe the prophecy is true–that is a mystery to you
Nico baby, lay off the sauce
So I take it that you don't object to the claim made in the cut and paste above ie that the AVN does push an alternative view you just believe that you have compelling evidence to the contrary in regards to the dangers of vaccines?
Can you specify what you object to? It seems you are pushing the link between Vaccines and autism?
that was very interesting,
BUT do u have any other sources other than the cdc and the fda as there obviously not credible sources if there profiteers from vaccination programs. if i were to debate that vaccines were bad for you and only referenced anti-vaccine sources my argument wouldnt be very credible would it. sooo if you have any non-biased sources that support your theory (meaning they are not making a ANY money and are not related in any way to pharmaceutical companies or governments – ) it would be very ! interesting.
why dont you check out cochrane.org for non-biased raw data thats actual science and evidence.
see if you can fine evidence there that supports everything you have cut and pasted above!
I am actually a member of the avn, and have never been pushed in any way on to this 'homeopathy "fukolgy" u stated above, in fact its great ,they link you with credible non biased sources and allow you to make an educated choice. instead of just pushing you in one direction like unsupported government organizations. any one who disagrees with having the right to research information on issues such as vaccinations and agrees that places like the avn should be shut down are completely blinded and too naive for there own good. its an absolute shame, if ANYONE is making this issue black and white its complete pro-vax people, there is no need for this sought of action, the avn are simply a form of help for parents with questions- and WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH ASKING QUESTIONS!!! ?
i look forward to seeing how you go!
OK pro-research, what the heck do you or don't you support? I'm a little confused from your conflicting comments. Are you for or against vaccines? Do you believe the MMR vaccine causes autism ?
I had a quick look at the cochrane.org site you suggested and did a few searches for vaccine and related. I found this pdf article. Which opens with this sentence:
So in a few moments search I have proved using your recommended link that there is no harm from the MMR vaccine. Thanks for the link, oh and next time, save us the searching and link direct to the report you wanted us to read.
more… soon on harm not vaccinating children causes to the wider community…
Never heard of Cochrane Library
not having ever listened to any skeptical podcasts before.
And yes it is lovely when people provide links.
OK pro-research, what the heck do you or don't you support? I'm a little confused from your conflicting comments. Are you for or against vaccines? Do you believe the MMR vaccine causes autism ?
I had a quick look at the cochrane.org site you suggested and did a few searches for vaccine and related. I found this pdf article. Which opens with this sentence:
So in a few moments search I have proved using your recommended link that there is no harm from the MMR vaccine. Thanks for the link, oh and next time, save us the searching and link direct to the report you wanted us to read.
more… soon on harm not vaccinating children cause to the wider community…
OK pro-research, what the heck do you or don't you support? I'm a little confused from your conflicting comments. Are you for or against vaccines? Do you believe the MMR vaccine causes autism ?
I had a quick look at the cochrane.org site you suggested and did a few searches for vaccine and related. I found this pdf article. Which opens with this sentence:
So in a few moments search I have proved using your recommended link that there is no harm from the MMR vaccine. Thanks for the link, oh and next time, save us the searching and link direct to the report you wanted us to read.
more… soon on harm not vaccinating children cause to the wider community…
@pro-research, I assume you also know that The Cochrane Collection is a collection of meta-analyses of multiple scientific studies, some of which have been funded with government money? A large percentage of scientific research is funded by government funds, even alternative medicine science. Using your theory, this would make a study that reports acupuncture effective against lower back pain as biased as a study that says whooping cough vaccine reduces the chances of getting the bacteria by X%. Using government funded studies as a reason to cry biased will eliminate a large majority of science, including the stuff you call credible.
You see the way it works rachael is that scientific standards of evidence and review are only applied when it supports your own thinking
If the AVN are pro-choice, can you show me where they sell T-Shirts urging parents to vaccinate? I know they have T-Shirts on their front page that tell parents to "NEVER inject them".
If they are truly even-handed and just offering information, can you explain this T-Shirt?
No but I see you can get discounts if you go to some of their "professional member" registered homeopaths.
They also have an affiliate program through which they pay people commissions to help them spread their message through book, membership and subscription sales. I'm assuming, however, that none of their members see these promoters as "shills".
Will someone who happens to have the umpteen links to actual SCIENTIFIC research please post them, or link to a site that has them? I'm afraid I only have first-hand knowledge of why most chiropractors are a joke and why we should build lots more nuclear reactors.
When the majority of health scientists and doctors have debunked and provided contrary evidence to the anti-vaxxers, you are in denial if you can't accept that.
huh?
you dont make sense, are u asking for a SCIENTIFIC research site? i stated above, http://www.cochrane.org, check it out.
do you know that majority of doctors are paid to enforce vaccines, they are endorsed if they get majority of their patients to vaccinate? id love to see the day they all get together and say " yeh stuff all the money we get at the end of the year for vaccinating -lets be moral citizens and actually have the health of society at our highest priority!' pfttttt please, money talks!
@pro-research, you claim that the AVN links you to "credible" sources. Would this be like Vaccination Liberation Information site which states that vaccines contain mercury? The mercury to which they refer is in the preservative thimerosol, the latter of which was removed from kids vaccines in the year 2001 as a precaution (not because there was any evidence for harm). So why do they still claim there is mercury in kids vaccines?
Providers get paid to vaccinate, parents get paid to complete the vaccine schedule, you also get paid to not vaccinate and the AVN actively encourages you to do this by linking to the place to get a form. http://avn.org.au/library/index.php/links/conscie...
Everyone is getting paid for something, all with money from the government. As the saying goes, people in glass houses….
Had a tetanus shot for an injury last year…vax info insert said it conatined thiomersal. Are clinics using different jabs for kids or the same for all of us?
Interesting, did you mention anything to the doctor? Did you have to cleanse yourself? Give us your explanation?
interstingly enough I asked both the doctor and the clinic nurse assisting in the stitching up of my gaping wound if the tetanus vaccine I was getting contained mercury (as I had heard some had) they said they didn’t actaully know…so i asked for the insert read it and it said thiomersal. i then asked if a vaccine would do any good if I had already got tetatnus from my injury…they said yes…you really should have it….so i did, trusting them to be in charge of all the facts as they are the medical professionals. This event then spurned my interest in the whole topic of vaccination and has led me on an interesting journey of discovery…which also led to the discovery of the exact nature of tetanus and what it entails as an ailment….a distinctly rare one in terms of morbidity and mortality but still present in the environment, to a greater level than many other ‘vax prevenatble’ issues.
As for cleansing myself…is this comment one a of a personal nature, the kind that you yourself have suggested damage ones credibility.
@pro-research, you claim that the AVN links you to "credible" sources. Would this be like Vaccination Liberation Information site which states that vaccines contain mercury? The mercury to which they refer is in the preservative thimerosol, the latter of which was removed from kids vaccines in the year 2001 as a precaution (not because there was any evidence for harm). So why do they still claim there is mercury in kids vaccines?
Providers get paid to vaccinate, parents get paid to complete the vaccine schedule, you also get paid to not vaccinate and the AVN actively encourages you to do this by linking to the place to get a form. http://avn.org.au/library/index.php/links/conscie...
Everyone is getting paid for something, all with money from the government. As the saying goes, people in glass houses….
I love this straw reaching attempt. Everyone in this debate has financial interest, but doctors are actually engaged in the provision of proven health care. Weighing this up against companies and practitioners that hock magic water in a bottle and mislabel herbal medicines as homeopathy I don't think we should get into a discussion about morals.
But then hey I once received some free medication from a pharmacetical company so that probably means I am biased(though I have paid through the nose for chiropractic so maybe this balances me out).
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/cdc-vac...
speaking of the cdc and autism…
CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding has delivered a potentially explosive report to the powerful House Appropriations Committee, in which she admits to a startling string of errors in the design and methods used in the CDC's landmark 2003 study that found no link between mercury in vaccines and autism, ADHD, speech delay or tics.
Gerberding was responding to a 2006 report from the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS), which concluded that methodology such as that used in the CDC's flagship thimerosal safety study is riddled with "several areas of weaknesses" that combine to "reduce the usefulness" of using the data in such a way.
"CDC concurs," Dr. Gerberding wrote in an undated report to Congress, (provided to me through a Capital Hill staffer) adding that her agency "does not plan to use" the database in question, the Vaccine Safety Datalink, (VSD) for any future "ecological studies" of autism (though that is exactly what they did in the 2003 study).
In fact, Gerberding's report said, use of the VSD for an ecological study now, comparing autism rates before and after the removal of most mercury from vaccines, "would be uninformative and potentially misleading."
Ecological vaccine studies are large, epidemiological analyses of risks and trends using computerized data from large populations — in this case children enrolled at several big HMOs — without linking results to actual individual outcomes.
CDC officials conducted at least five separate analyses of the data over a four-year period from 1999-2003. The first analysis showed that children exposed to the most thimerosal by one month of age had extremely high relative risks for a number of outcomes, compared with children who got little or no mercury: The relative risk for ADHD was 8.29 times higher; for autism, it was 7.62 times higher; ADD, 6.38 times higher; tics, 5.65 times; and speech and language delays were 2.09 more likely among kids who got the most mercury.
Over time, however, all of these risks declined into statistical insignificance, statistical inconsistency or else outright oblivion: The relative risk for autism plummeted from 7.62 in the first analysis, to 2.48 in the second version, to 1.69 in the third round, to 1.52 in the fourth, and down to nothing at all in the fifth, final, and published analysis printed in the Journal Pediatrics in November of 2003.
hmmmmmmmmm, check out the full write up
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/cdc-vac...
Earlier you said that providing biased sources undermines your argument; "if i were to debate that vaccines were bad for you and only referenced anti-vaccine sources my argument wouldnt be very credible would it".
David Kirby runs the anti-vax website http://www.evidenceofharm.com/. He is a renowned and vocal anti-vaxer. Far from unbiased "evidence".
My goodness that wonderful journal of unbiased health advice the HuffPo( appropriate for a publication that is full of hot air).
Anti -Vaxx concludes – Errors in study = Vaccines cause autism? Or CDC errors means government conspiracy. Riiiight and Pine gap is a secret submarine facility in the centre of Australia.
I'll have a look at the report itself rather than trust the likes of David Kirby (one wonders, does he make money from has posting of anti-vaxx twaddle can we rule him out?) Can we find someone not compromised by money in this debate?:D
What's the harm in vaccine denial? Here's a few stories to make you think.
What's the harm in vaccine denial? Part 2. Some more data, yes it's from the cdc site, but they give data for illnesses caused by vaccines as well. The whole page is quite interesting, but the section on Risk from Disease versus Risk from Vaccine should give the anti-vaxxers something to consider.
Yes, pro-research there is no harm in asking questions, but there is harm in getting the wrong answers. From what research I've done it would strongly suggest that the world is far better off having all children vaccinated.
There may be slightly better methods to deliver the vaccinations, and there may be chemicals that should be avoided being used in them (as Racheal has already pointed out, mercury has been removed from vaccines for the last 8 years), but the risk to the wider community in not vaccinating children is far worse.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/h...
If you keep up with recent events, it really makes no sense to equate vaccinations with autism when you see that the guy that started that train of thought has been totally shown to be a conman who did it for money, all the children in his study were already showing signs of autism before vaccination. Plus further recent research has identified the gene that causes autism. Take a look at this story and then think about all the 'new age' CURES for autism that have come to the fore, for a price, by other charlatans looking to give false hope and fleece parents! There is no cure for autism! Early intervention can in some cases help to overcome some of the associated effects of autism, but unfortunately there is no cure.
He's been framed I tell ya
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2009...
The other issue anti vaxers should think about is the return of old virus's that had been eradicated by vaccination and given us herd immunity. As we have seen with the H1N1 virus the spread of any virus is amazingly quick. Measles has returned thanks to the misinformation given to parents about vaccinations.
You make a very good point. The more viruses are able to get out and spread, the greater the likelihood that they can mutate and create a more virulent strain. So, those people who refuse vaccination are not just putting the immune compromised and unvaccinated (as a result of age, allergies, other medical conditions etc) at risk, but all of us. Pro-choice? What about my choice to want to live in a relatively disease free society?
thanks guys for your opinion,
i will read everything you have posted, i just wanted as much info on both sides to make the best choice for my children, thanks for your links
I am sorry pro-research, forgive me If I doubt you sincerity in this last comment. I think you came here looking to spread more misinformation. You never directly addressed the points in the original post. You put forward standard conspiracy theories and misinformation spread by groups like the AVN.
I may be wrong. If that is the case I apologise.
If the few points above are enough to change you opinion, I'll warrant that you have not looked that far into the issue. Now there is nothing wrong with asking questions or making a stand when it comes to dealing with the health system or any system for that matter. We have a right to be informed as to the risks of treatment, we have a right to be treated as Human beings.
What I see with alternative medicine is the creation of a false dichotomy. They alternative medicine crowd are only too eager to massage the ego's of those who are not satisfied with standard medicine and to sell you a solution. Notice how both pharmacuetical companies and homeopathic companies appeal to a trained consumer response ie buy something to fix it.
Many people seem to go from blindly trusting doctors, to blindly trusting homeopaths etc.
i have not made up my mind on the issue at all based on the few points made above, but any info for either side of the issue is of great value to me and i will keep it in mind when i do make the final decision. the reason i pasted the statements above was to spark debate and hence get people to post there finest reasoning- which they did – which is great, i would rather talk to real people about this issue then simply google sites and write ups.
Asking questions is easy but the existence of a question does not constitute a debate. The overwhelming evidence lies with the mainstream medical community – and vaccination. Just because a minority beg to differ with mainstream opinion does not mean the so-called "debate" has equal arguments on either side.
It's like arguing the world is flat and constantly demanding science to prove otherwise and claiming the issue remains unresolved while you've still got more questions. The problem is that after the first dozen or more questions are dealt with, the antagonist all-too-often returns to question one and starts the process all over again.
Aside from that, anyone looking objectively at the AVN site would easily see that it is, without any shadow of a doubt, an anti-vax site.
Hi pro-research, I commend your desire to research the topic. I hope we were of some assistance. I, like Sean am also concerned that the AVN spread falsehoods and misinformation about vaccination/vaccines, but not only that, other forms of conventional medicine too. By definition, alternative medicine is unproven to work, when it works, it is called medicine. The pharmaceutical industry, like may other profit making industries is not beyond reproach. But as Sean alluded to, they are the lesser of two evils in the sense that their products are thoroughly researched and proven to have a benefit. There are side effects with vaccines, they are documented on government websites and in the insert for vaccines themselves. No-one denies this or tries to hide it. I personally would much rather have my children protected from a potentially fatal illness with a vaccine that is demonstrated effective, than rely on someone who got a degree/diploma/certificate online etc and sells magic water.
You may be interested in checking out the Australian Government publication, http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publis...
This will answer many of your questions.
Hi Rachael,
That link is excellent, but I can imagine that the response from the AVN would be something to do with governments being in big pharmo company pockets.
Hi Sean,
I'm Richard J from A|N. Found this blog. Although it's not specifically about the AVN, it does deal with the issue.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/08/in_whic...
Thanks Ricky, good article
*Vaccines are not a 100 % safe and its never been claimed that they are – people can have idiosyncratic reactions, their can be issues relating to manufacture. …Yet a culture of discounting parent claims and incidents of advesre reactions in the medical profession exists…
*Did you miss out on Biota shares…erm no…kerching.
*prompted a zealous response from public officials…sounds familiar
*That they manfactured the diesease to inflate their share price…lets not forget that ground zero for swine flu was geographically quite close to Baxter’s vax labs in Mexico…the very same vax labs were responsible for sending a large quanity of bird flu infected flu vax’s to Europe that was only noticed by a dilligent lab technician checking the jabs before distribution…..more on this when it returns to mind and the cries of CONSPIRACY of the the euro illuminati…glitterati what ever die down….
**Because you didn’t have cildhood vacinations, we shouldn’t take advantage of them now?….well Chicken Pox didn’t seem so bad then….why worry now…should we put more trust in our own immune systems?
AND FOR INTERESTS SAKE….
We are not gonna get too far here are we…so instead lets discuss these points, I’d like to know your thoughts…
1.Lets see if if we can dig up the Australian vacicination schedule for children up to say, 5 years old and compare these with the schedules of other countries in the developed world. this would be a prompt for some engaging dialogue in comparing and contrasting these.
2. When a newborn child comes into the world in Australia, there is a desire to vaccinate them against strains of hepatitis, supposedly because that child may be at risk of Hep related issues later in life. Target age range….for at risk hep related behaviour is 18-30. What proof exists that the vax will still have efficacy then…and if my child is not being born into an at risk environment…ie a household where intravenous drug use is apparent and sanitation is questionable….do i really need to consent to that vax.
3. What of the claim that ” engineers have done to improve public health in the 20th century than vaccines”
Pardon the pun, but these are not rectal smokescreens for you….I’m keen to use more of your valuable time in having you respond.
PS I’m keen to know, from one atheist to another, what political leaning co-exists with your approach to the many subjects you think about online?
I’ve a hunch but I’m still keen to hear, call it my own reasearch into bloggers on these types of pages?
Sorry…not the exact labs in mexico city but those vax labs of the same company…Baxter
http://www.lifegen.de/newsip/shownews.php4?getnews=2009-02-25-5123
H5N1 and BAxter
Yet a culture of discounting parent claims and incidents of advesre reactions in the medical profession exists… evidence?
*Did you miss out on Biota shares…erm no…kerching. you say "kerching" as if you think it adds anything to your argument, try a bit harder if you really want to be taken seriously.
lets not forget that ground zero for swine flu was geographically quite close to Baxter's vax labs in Mexico…the very same vax labs were responsible for sending a large quanity of bird flu infected flu vax's to Europe that was only noticed by a dilligent lab technician checking the jabs before distribution…..
come on Jando – evidence and links, I am not inclined to take your story seriously without either. You seem to string coincidences together and come up with a conspiracy, how about you present something solid
**Because you didn't have cildhood vacinations, we shouldn't take advantage of them now?….well Chicken Pox didn't seem so bad then….why worry now…should we put more trust in our own immune systems?
Oh so we are just taking about Chicken Pox Vax are we? Again conveniently dodging the childhood diseases that kill. We should put more trust in our immune systems – why? What about the eradication of diseases like measles. Your argument from tradition is weak ie we didn't used to vaccinate why should we now?
AND FOR INTERESTS SAKE….
We are not gonna get too far here are we…so instead lets discuss these points, I'd like to know your thoughts….
How about you stop shotgunning and pony up with some decent argument backed by evidence <span class="idc-smiley"><span style="background-position: 0pt 0pt;"><span>:)</span></span></span>
From one Atheist to another, my political leanings or lack thereof are no of your business. I find you deceptive and disingenuous so lets say I am disenlcined to offer you information for you to string together some hunch.
http://www.lifegen.de/newsip/shownews.php4?getnews=2009-02-25-5123 – interesting reading Baxter and H5N1
"There are severe signs that the long expected pandemic avian influenza could be on its way to conquer the world – even without Baxter's error driven help."
Interesting indeed. What was your point though? That pharmaceutical companies aren't perfect? Who is?
Would you condemn the entire CAM pharmaceutical industry as a result of the PAN Pharmaceutical recall in 2003?
Certainly the point really is is how much funding is the TGA recieiving from the federal gov…as we rely on this body to maintain vigilance over ALL tg manufacturers…Is the TGA really equipped and funded to monitor and maintain safety in the industry to protect us indiscretions from Pan, baxter, , Merck, Glaxo, Bitoa, CSLetc etc etc. Sounds like the fox has been put in charge of the hen house methinks!
And thinking about it now, it really comes down to YES…the entire pharma industry DOES need to be PERFECT for the sake of all our health and the TGA and the AFGov need to take responsibility for ensuring it’s perfection.
Easier said than done sure, but a noble goal for any governement is it not?
Striving for perfection is fine but if you expect to see it achieved, you're living on the wrong planet. For example, banning vaccinations is not a perfect solution, neither is limiting them, neither is open choice (fuelled by misinformation or not).
Almost everything is a risk-benefit assessment and that assessment is made more difficult by people who insist vaccinations are the work of reptilian overlords hell-bent on world domination – as the AVN apparently do.
Andy D…are you suggesting that vaccination, or any other medical procedures for that matter are to be conducted without the explicit consent of the patient…this to me has the potential to put at risk many many fundamental basic human rights. No one here is suggesting banning vaccination or limiting them. the point is that all the info and the pros and cons should be laid bare truthfully and honestly (by both sides of the debate no less) and people are able to make a choice about their own actions.
Thus, if you are fully vax’d, you have done so fully aware of the risks and beneifts, like wise if you have chosen not to vax, you have done so fully aware of the risks and benefits.
Plus, if you are fully vax’d, you have nothing to fear from the unvax’d who might contract illnesses, because you are fully vax’d….right…and protected…so what is the big deal?…let the unvax’d die off from the nasty viruses like chicken pox etc and live long and prosper…as long as you are safe and vax’d you surely have nothing to fear if they are effective as you say they are???
Actually the point was to try and link Baxter to engineering of the swine flu virus no? Which the article doesn't and thus Jando you shift the argument again.
I too am an avid member of the AVN and I will always stand up for my right to my child's immune system as every parent should have the choice and that's really what it's about at the end of the day your rights and your choices..
Ah but when your rights and your choices effect others children then its a shared, community responsibility no?
This should not be an issue. Society expects you to behave in ways that don’t harm others. By not vaccinatif your children not only are you potentially harming them, you’re potentially harming others in society. I liken this group to one which promotes putting children in cars and telling them to gather as many others their age to drive as fast as possible in as many built up areas as possible. It can’t possibly end well, but the parents still yell about their rights to raise children the way they want. I wonder how any anti-vaccination people would continue their rhetoric if little Johnny was walking around in leg braces thanks to Polio. Would they still say it’s good for him?
I'm not a member of anything or any group. No labels plastered anywhere near my forehead!!! I have no desire to 'belong' and I'm astounded that I feel the need to comment on this subject.
I have seen, first hand, the ravages of polio. Three of my close friends contracted it when we were children.
I have seen, first hand, the ravages of measles. I had a close family member die of it. He was 3 at the time.
I have seen, first hand, the ravages of whooping cough. Have you watched a small child whoop while you stood helplessly by? Well, I have. It's hell.
My father's family lost children to smallpox.
These are preventable diseases. Not protecting your children from them is simply ignorant.
Jando,
Thanks for conceding to the previous points in my comment. I will get back to answering the tangents and red herrings that you have thrown in above when I have some more time
Interesting that you suggest we have a mroal obligation as a member of the community to vaccinate and protect everyone from unpleasant diseases
Actually I said : That in my opinion your right to vaccinate or not vaccinate is not a purely individual one. You actions effect the health of others and as such you have responsibilities to others.
and
For the action of vaccinating/not vaccinating to be ethically right/wrong I think people have to be properly informed. A person who decides not to vaccinate due to scaremongering and misinformation is not in possession of the correct information and I would not consider them to be acting unethically.
As a kid i was not vacicnated against measles or chicken pox, or the flu for that matter…no-one was, kids got chicken pox and then got over it.
How is this relevant? Because you didn't have cildhood vacinations, we shouldn't take advantage of them now? I note that you neglect to mention some of the more serious diseases like polio. A colleague of mine wasn't vaccinated against polio, she lives in a wheelchair and has difficulty feeding herself ie she didn't get over it.
Anyway, google up yourself some states from the Australian Giv. census data about pertussis vax rates and corresponding cases…….
How about you send me a link to the source of your information instead of leading me on a goose chase where I will have to correct your misinterpretation of the results.
As for the swine flu pandemic, check out the details of the US outbreak in 1976. 4 confirmed cases, one death, 4000 confirmed vaccine injuries and 25 confirmed deaths and $3.5 billion in compensation claims. The vax campaign in the US at the time was also cut short after 10 weeks, well short of the target of jabbing the whole population.
The outbreak in America in 76 wasn't a pandemic it was an outbreak, fear of a pandemic prompted a zealous response from public officials. It was a huge over reaction the vaccine killed more people than the disease. But to put that in perspective 25 people died out of 50 million vacinated (rough figures). Contrast that with the following figures from the latest who data on the current pandemic
World wide
182,166 cases ( which is an under reported figure)
1799 deaths
Kinda differet to the 14 cases that sparked the 1976 debarcle.
My other point of issue re big pharma is that bottom line does come first…(check the spike in Biota's sp since H1N1 appeared on the scene…kerching!
What are you saying? That they manfactured the diesease to inflate their share price. Really grasping at straws here mate. The market is reacting to an event. Did you miss out on Biota shares?
Yet why do do we allow these companies to be be free from litigation by law. In the US for instance you can sue the Federal Gov for vax injury (each dose of vax is excised to pay for the compo fund…thus they must cause issues sometimes otherwise there'd be no need for it?!?!) and yet there is very llimited legal responsibilty placed on Merck, Baxter etc for the safety (and efficacy) of their product.
Actualy as far as I know there is no vaccine injury scheme in Australia, although it has been propsed. So you still have common law rights to sue the manufacturer or the person administering the vaccination if you can prove a vaccine related injury.
The American system was put in place to maintain the steady supply of proven vaccines and to compensate those that have suffered vaccine injury. Vaccines are not a 100 % safe and its never been claimed that they are – people can have idiosyncratic reactions, their can be issues relating to manufacture. When the public is urged by the government to vaccinate it is only fair that those that are injured can be compensated. The American scheme enables anyone(the $250 filing fee can be waved for the poor) to apply for compensation without having to drag it through the normal court proceedure. The system seems to be working well. Again grasping at straws and misrepresenting the situation.
Poor effort mate, what's net green our vaccines, from the Jenny Mcarthy school of I don't want toxins in my body but I'll inject Botulinum toxin into my sagging face?
Also, try and get your local GP to sign over any kind of liability for administering you with a vax (a medical procedure)..)….yes another challenge Sean…hahaha .this can be a difficult .
It might be difficult for you Jando, It just took me a little time.
if you can prove a vaccine related injury was the result of a doctors negligence, sue them. How can you expect a Doctor to accept liabitlity for a vaccine he has not produced, that he has no conrol over(other than storage)? It's like expecting a bycycle salesman to accept liability for the manufacture of a bike frame – think about it for a second and you might realise how rediculous your point is.
WHO Pandemic Data <a href="http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_08_21/en/index.ht…” target=”_blank”>http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_08_21/en/index.ht…
76 Swine Flu Debarcle <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbr…” target=”_blank”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_swine_flu_outbr…
Lets also introduce some more scope to the discussion by looking at the scientifically proven links between the use of squalene based adjuvants in antrax vaccines administered to US soldiers
and the onset of Gulf War Syndrome – responsible for a host of long term autoimmune disorders.
Squalene based adjuvants are in the mix of at least two US pharma’s attempt’s to create a swine flu vax….GWS no thanks!
No how about you stop shifting the goal posts or changing the subject when you get nailed on something. Where's your links by the way
Now this is more interesting Jando. I would be more interested on what you found out in this instance than the conclusion jumping escapade you have led readers of this blog through trying to link pharma companies to global conspiracies.
We are pattern forming creatures which can lead us to make connections where there are none particularly when they fit nicely into our biases.
So tell us what you found out about tetanus and what information you think the staff should have known?
As for cleansing, that was tongue in cheek and hinting at detoxing.