Donna, has pondered:
“I wondered to myself this weekend if, in REALLY simplistic, empirical terms, if you couldn’t say that a person of atheist belief has just as much “faith” that God doesn’t exist-as I do, that He does.”
Thank you for the question Donna. I think it may give me a good chance to clarify and clear up some misunderstandings.
I will begin with some definitions, because when we start using terms like belief and faith those words in some context can have very specific meanings and in other context can be used very broadly – so here’s hoping I don’t waffle too much.
Faith 1 : Acceptance of ideals, beliefs, etc., which are not necessarily demonstrable through experimentation or reason. (this is a very specific usage of the word)
Faith 2 : complete confidence in a person or plan etc; “he cherished the faith of a good woman”; “the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust” (this is a looser use of the word)
You say:
“… that a person of atheist belief has just as much “faith” that God doesn’t exist-as I do, that He does.”
An here is where I must clarify, there is no such thing as a person of Atheist belief. An Atheist is simply someone who does not accept the unfounded assertion that a God or gods exist. I don’t believe that a god does not exist, I simply have not been convinced that one does. Could a god exist? Yes possibly. Unlikely to considering our current understanding of the universe, but we don’t know everything. (and I am referring to God as a loose concept here – the defining of what god is could fill screens)
Now you will hear Atheists say that they don’t believe in god(s), but it does not imply that they have a belief in no god(s). I don’t believe in fairies, but I don’t have a belief in no fairies.
Theists claim that there is a god
They provide no evidence(credible evidence)
Atheists say, I am not convinced by the evidence
not
Here is the evidence that no god exists.
The onus of proof lies with the person making the claim.
Related posts:
- Doesn’t Atheism require as much faith as belief in god? Donna, has pondered: “I wondered to myself this weekend if,...
- The path to my Atheism Donna, has asked: Sean, I think, early on when I...
- Freedom of Religion and Belief in the 21st Century A small team of dedicated Australian Atheists at Atheist Nexus...
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In addition to my previous reply to Donna
I would be lying if I didn’t admit I initially doubted my doubt. A great deal of the time.
and even now occasionally a fleeting sense I might be wrong strays into my head but I think that has more to do with conditioned reflexes than actual misgivings of my lack of faith in any diety or religion.
fdqpink,
Please look back under the posting
“What does make me sick”- I posted
to you there, because I got “stuck”, re-reading there.
Ok, now I have done some thinking.
For you & Sean- I think you, “fdq”
(is that OK?) are right when you admit that occasionally you have a
fleeting sense that you might be “wrong”. I also think it’s possible those times are due to “conditinoed reflexes”, but maybe not- I say “maybe not” because I, personally, do not KNOW.
I can’t see me, personally, ever purporting to know most/everything
about such an esoteric subject as
“religion”. That would be like asking me what I know about “math”
or “algebra” or calculus- ZIP!!
And, falling right into line with
“conditioned reflexes”, I cannot imagine me, personally saying, with
conviction, there is not “God”. But THAT is ME, and I am NOT trying
to force anyone else to “believe” that.
Since you, fdq, have “admitted” that you initialy “doubted my doubt”, I will admit, I guess I am
“Lazy”. IF I really wanted to argue (some might go so far as to call it “witnessing”)I’d zip to the
other room, get out my Bible and start looking stuff up and jotting down chapters 7 verses, etc. ad finitum. But in thinking about it all this morning, I decided I AM lazy, and there ARE just some things that even the best of friends “agree to disagree on”. We
are all adults here, we are pretty
much given free will to make up our
own minds and make our own choices.
If I wanted to get into “argue mode” and get really worked up, I guess I could spend some time & “study”, but honestly, I just don’t want to. The “Me Controlling
Everything” part of my life is over, there are other things I’d prefert to spend the next 40-50 yrs on- my personal “art”, journaling, friends, volunteering in a nearby community, etc.
I was thinking yesterday that my
grandparents on my mother’s side never went to church a day in their lives- neither did my beloved
Dad. You wouldn’t have found more
humble, “good citizens” than them.
Because I believe in Heaven, I KNOW
they are there. But that is MY belief.
I respect your belief, just as you
all respect mine. And I must admit, I am just too lazy to “argue” for “my” side. Besides, what would be the point of that, since we ARE all adults?
I don’t wish to offend or BE offended.
Yes, I am “lazy”, AND- I may be “right”, OR YOU may be right.
Heck, maybe there’s a way we’re BOTH “right”!!
Donna
I really don’t want to offend or demean youso if at any point you are offended for any reason please say so.I was raised till the age of 6 living in my grandparents house in a small backward community in the norfolk town of Walsingham(look it up)Back then a high percentage of the population were clergymen and nuns either practicing or retired. My Nan always talked about god and jesus as she talked about any other person she knew.I attended church at st mary’s of walsingham. A protestant church so far up in the hierarchy mass was still conducted in latin.Sunday school was run by nuns.
mmmmm nuns…
Then on and off for a few years many positive relationships with a few different denominations. then aged about 19 or 20 I realised my mistake of course it took a few months to get through doubting whether or not I should be doubting before I got onto whether or not there is a god.
To aid your laziness so you don’t have to fech that book from the other room can I recommend this site
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
and have you ever read any of the other books of scriptue that were not allowed in your bible all the other gospels the books of jasher and enoch to name but a few
you can find them here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/index.htm
or here
http://www.gnosis.org/welcome.html
I don’t want to argue with you or convince you of anything. I hope that I am not going to make any claims below that really need to be proven (I was a math major in college and I have to say that working proofs was the most obnoxious, tedious part of my education).
I have lived my life trying to be a loving, kind, respectful person. But sometimes…sometimes I meet the person or get myself into a situation that tests every fiber of my being. These things happen because of choices that I make. Frequently, I can’t see that I have even made a choice until I am so close to drowning that I hit my knees.
I believe at these times I am more receptive to what God has in mind for me. This is when I am usually able to find my way out of whatever mess I have gotten myself into.
If you are an atheist, how do you see this?
Is it just quieting myself enough to see the way out or something else?
You guys hopefully know that I am relatively thick skinned about these discussions and that I can agree to disagree with you on the subject!
Love and peace!
WM
wm said: “I believe at these times I am more receptive to what God has in mind for me. This is when I am usually able to find my way out of whatever mess I have gotten myself into.
If you are an atheist, how do you see this?
Is it just quieting myself enough to see the way out or something else?”
I was the same way when I was a believer. Back then I prayed for guidance over *everything*. I never “heard” god answer me in my head or anything but it always seemed like after I prayed a solution would always present itself in an obvious way.
Now as an atheist I do something similar…if I have a problem that I just can’t figure out how to handle, I put it on the back burner. I put it completely out of mind, go about my business for the rest of the day and at bedtime I’ll think about the issue and kind of tell myself “it’ll work itself out” and go to sleep. The next day or two…the resolution will clearly emerge in my mind or circumstances will resolve it. But I no longer attribute that to divine intervention. I credit my wonderful, complex, supercool brain. Before I turned it over to god…now I turn it over to my subconscious.
So, yes…I think you figure it out on your own but because your focus is on divine intervention you credit that instead.
Sean–I think you answered Donna well. A lack of terminological consensus is really interfering with clear communication between theists and non-theists.
Protestants in particular, have a whole different lexicon than even other xtians like Eastern Orthodox (which I was)…they can be talking about the exact same word and discussing two completely different bits of theology.
“Now you will hear Atheists say that they don’t believe in god(s), but it does not imply that they have a belief in no god(s). I don’t believe in fairies, but I don’t have a belief in no fairies.”
OK- the above, by Sean, makes alot
more sense to my simple mind.
Since I AM admittedly “lazy”, the only thing I can “counter” with (and not at all in an contfrontational/argumentative way, because I DON’T see the value
in it)is kinda the reverse- I do have a belief in God/Christ, but I
am not 100% discounting the possiblity that others may be right, too. Or, more so than I am.
Or, I guess, another way to front it would be, some things, you just KNOW. For YOU.
PS, anyone-
Does anyone know if any of the following groups are part of ea. other: Mormons/Latter Day Saints
7th Day Adventist
Jehovah’s Witness
I don’t think the Mormons are part of the other 2, but are the last 2
groups the “same”???
donna-
all three groups are distinct but they all share a belief in Saturday sabbaths. here are a couple quick links with quick rundowns of the latter two:
SDA
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8036_1.html
JW
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/80/story_8034_1.html
sorry to make you cut and paste.
Mormons have a Sunday Sabbath, and they are their own entitity. Trust me.
oops…right. fact check failure.
Thanks, ladies!!
I will cut & paste- @ least you gave me the info!!
Whom is it that comes around, Bible
toting and when you don’t answer
the door, they leave copies of their “Watch Tower” publication?
Well put Sean.
Words can be funny things and people will interpret them in their way to prove a point.
Defining them first, like you have done, helps eliminate that confusion.
Donna talks about “…some things you just KNOW. For YOU.”
How is an atheist ‘knowing’ there is no god any different from a theist ‘knowing’ there is one?
An excellent question SS asked me and one I’m still working on an answer for.
By the way some atheists do say: “Here is the evidence that no god exists.” Victor Stenger and his ‘God – the Failed Hypothesis’ for one.
Donna
the Watchtower is the J W’s organization
Sean’s idea of misunderstandings has a great deal of merit and it goes alot deeper than you possibly imagine .
We are dealing not only with our own cultural differences with the interpretation of words but translations seperated by time,culture and the beliefs of the interpreters.To this you also have to add in the belief/interpretation of the person(s) hearing or reading the scriptures.
I can’t help wondering . Your belief in god, do you feel it is a belief more from a traditional perspective or is it the only explaination for “lifes unanswerable questions?
I don’t have doubts(about god), I am just willing to admit that I don’t know everything or even a little bit about everything, a god may exist – but it is obviously beyond our current comprehension or ability to detect and for all practical purposes is non existent.
Now what is God? that is a a question with a million answers and why we often have to define whether we are talking about the Christian God or the Muslim or the Jewish, because they are different gods conceptually.
With the advancement of science and its power as a explanatory field of study, the application of reason to the bible and church cannon, god begins to evaporate into a rationalized personal god, chased into the gaps where science has yet to tread.
So after all that waffle, could a god exist yes? Is it likely to be anything like the concepts presented throughout history – unlikely, those are entirely the invention of men(in my opinion)
Donna,
I can appreciate the laziness
There are sometimes more important things to do in life to count how many angels can dance upon the head of a pin, or whether angels, or the pin for that manner exist.
That and these questions are confronting and draining intellectually as they go to the core of what makes a person.
WM,
evolve uses exactly the same technique as I do. She has answered word for word exactly how I deal with situations where one would normally pray for help.
The Buddhists have a technique that is similar – that each situation has a solution already figured out, you just have to wait for it to present itself.
The mind works nest when calm, prayer achieves this psychologically by putting the onus on “God” thereby leaving the believe with piece of mind. I just remove the god bit and wait for the situation to sort itself out or for my mind to work on it.
Evolve,
I think the terminology problem is often taken advantage of by unscrupulous apologists.
Paul Davies is a physicist who believes in god or at least a deity as far as I am aware. Unscrupulous Evangelists will then cite this is a victory, a scientist that belivies in God. Assuming that they are talking about the same concept of God. This is where we and people like Davies need to be moe careful when alluding to God.
Thanks OZ and Evolve for your compliments.
Now OZ,
On this “knowing” thing, this is why definition becomes important. When you define God, it he begins to evaporate as a concept – hence my reckoning that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim concepts of God are cultural concepts that can be divested of any divinity.
fdq,
Thanks- now I’ll know for sure which nutter group has left the little magazine next time. However, we’re kinda out in the country, so maybe they won’t “discover” us for awhile. Am
going to beliefnet.com later for some entertaining reading about them.
In response to your ? about my belief in God being traditional or
an explaination for things in life.
Kinda both. My Dad never went to church a day in his life, neither did ANY of my grandparents. But from being around my Dad, I know he believed in God, too, long story. I guess, for some of the bad things that happen in life, and
some of them that are truly bad, we
often do not get “justice” for, it’s “comforting” to think that the
perpetrator will get what’s coming to them when they die. I think alot of Christians feel that way.
It’s like that old saying “What goes around, comes around”. For some people, Christ/God are very personal, like you mentioned your grandmother talking to Jesus. He isn’t that personal for me, but I do have a childhood prayer I find myself “saying” in my head off & on. I don’t believe EVERYTHING in the Bible. Like Sean has pointed out, when you keep things in perspective, what goatherders knew of the world, THEIR world, was very limited.
All that being said, I saw on another site someone had commented
that it must be very sad to live your life “waiting to die”. The reference was made, I think, to the fact that some people, like Christians, look forward to “seeing” loved ones again. MY
take on that is NOT that I’m “waiting to die”. But since my
Dad passed away 13-14 yrs ago, it has changed my perspective about death. I’m not as afraid. He may
be a “ghost”/vapor like gas out in the universe, he may be in somewhat
humanoid form, but I have NO doubt
that he will be there, with my brother and my grandparents. But that is ME.
And yes, some Christians and maybe
others use the concept of Hell and
perpetrators of awful crimes on their victims as being sentenced to
Hell if they don’t get caught in this world. But I say, what does it matter- if a good person has had
a personal tragedy befall them @ the hands of another and for whatever reason, the perpetrator literally got away with it, what harm does it do for the victim to be able to “get over it” by saying
“he’s getting paid back by going to
Hell” or whatever? We all, I guess, “cope” by one means or another. This yr., I’m trying to cope with humor, etc.
Lord, that was verbose, wasn’t it???
PS: I like the Buddhist line of thought, too- the solution is already there, you just have to wait for it to present. That’s really good for lazy folk. Like me. Seriously. And it makes sense.
Can one be a Christian Buddhist????
I don’t think my belief in God falls into the category of a traditional Christian belief either.
altho I was raised in a Christian home I honestly prefer to think of my family as very spiritual. Not necessarily religious. My dad raised us to look at the world around us. If it was necessary to change it then he always wanted us to leave it in better condition than we found (I realize that this is totally subjective to the observer but I think it is similar to the idea of first do no harm.)
Grace and love really are the foundations of what I believe and what I try to teach the monsters. I realize that these are not originally Christian concepts but they are what works for me today.
Just one more thought. I don’t believe in a vengeful punishing God. Maybe it is and interpretation thing or the involvement in step work but my God loves me and wants good things for me. He is willing to wait for me to do what I need to do and then get the heck out of the way!
Peace and love
WM-
I have an “internal name” for myself, I am beginning to think of myself as a “cafeteria plan Christian”. Basically, what YOU said!!
Now, I do wonder- if you basically
do “good”, everyday, try to bring
your kids up “right”, with morals
and ethics (much like alot of the
good folk here we’ve come to hang out with), do YOU think God is going to punish me/you/us if we don’t ATTEND CHURCH REGULARLY. I guess I “like” to picture it as when I get “there”, He says something like “Um, Donna, you know, you coulda done a little better about the ‘attendance’ thingie, right?”
What do you think????
Nope no punishment for not attending rote ritual things. Even though I do but more because i like the fellowship!
Of course I like the fellowship here too!
“Just one more thought. I don’t believe in a vengeful punishing God. Maybe it is and interpretation thing or the involvement in step work but my God loves me and wants good things for me. He is willing to wait for me to do what I need to do and then get the heck out of the way!”
This is the viewpoint that I had before I embraced atheism as I was leaving Christianity. Ultimately, though, I had to decide whether that belief, no matter how comforting, held up to the evidence around me. Why would god care so much about me and my petty squabbles in life yet would let a child starve to death in Africa? Why would my god, who was the definition of love, allow the genocide in Rwanda? When I actually allowed myself to consider what goes on in our world, I could no longer accept the notion of an all-loving god. I came to the conclusion that either god is not loving, or god doesn’t exist.
WM-
Well, this past summer, husb. and I tried a “compromise”- he being Catholic & me Southern Baptist. We
picked a small Lutheran church in our tiny town (it was what I’d call an “outpost”/”satellite” congretation of Lutherans- trying to get a “foothold” in a small community. A friend, whom attends
a big Lutheran church in Tulsa tried to warn us- he said you have to be careful about the “just beginning” congregations- once they
“get you”, they won’t leave you alone.
Well, we went to Sun. services,everyone was nice, we honestly did like it, very informal, informative and nice people. But the NEXT day, while I was out of earshot of the phone ringing, a message was left on the machine that a “Pat” and “Shirley”
wanted to deliver “cookies”, but they couldn’t find out house. I could NOT figure it out- I don’t know any “Pat” or “Shirley”. This was July, not Dec., so it couldn’t be “Christmas cookies” from anyone.
THEN I started thinking- @ the services the DAY BEFORE, I’d met 2 ladies, one named “Pat”, one “Shirley”. THEN, we got a phone
call from the “pastor” wanting to set up a time to come by that evening to “visit”. EXCUSE ME?
You can bet I got myself on the phone, called Pat & Shirley and said “No thank you, this style of
‘welcoming’ people is just too aggressive for us.” There were 1-2
contacts by telephone AND snail mail, even after that before they finally gave up.
I guess I am also what I internally
call a “Home Base Baptist”- and it
“aint” gonna change, because that’s how I was brought up. BUT,
I am interested in discussing, questioning, learning, hearing other points of view. I never would’ve thought there were “evangelistical” Lutherans if I hadn’t lived it!!
Sean, you will laugh when I “say”
this- you’ve heard that quip thru out life “O Ye of little faith. . .”? How about “Oh Ye, of Tiny Mind?” Ha-ha-ha. Or how about “Tiny Minds think alike!”
thranil,
I think I understand what you mean when you say you/we wonder about if there WAS a God, why would he let the killing in Rwanda continue
(the Congo is MY latest “rant”- women & children being raped by the militia there). The only “answer” I have, for myself, is that God gives “man” the power to think- whomever is funding/running the “bad guys” in Rwanda/Congo has free will in choice of what they do, and so do those that follow them. As a person, it makes me want to “hurl”.
If I were “monied”, I’d buy a plane
ticket and go volunteer to do some
practical nursing, etc. for a couple of weeks. Then, as Sean said
in an earlier post, things such as
Rwanda, etc., go on, because the people in power let them go on. I’m not sure what affect “we” could
have- I wish it were something.
Supposedly, that is what separates
“man” from “animal”- the human mind and the capacity to think things out. Or so I’ve heard, but sometimes, you have to wonder if the “man/men” doing the thinking aren’t just thinking about #1: THEMSELVES. Altho many may not agree with me, that is where I kinda have to “let it go”- there are ALOT of things I can’t do much about, but within ME, I write it off to “when tab cash-in time comes, the perpetrators WILL pay/”
Then, there are incidents of what I
call “Unassisted Justice”. That’s
when, still on this plane, you get
to SEE morons get what they deserve. Now that is probably NOT
a very “Christian-like” viewpoint, but I’ll “swan”, I have known some
deserving morons!!
WM said
“”I have lived my life trying to be a loving, kind, respectful person.”"
I think almost everyone would describe themselves as such whatever their political or religious beliefs
“”But sometimes…sometimes I meet the person or get myself into a situation that tests every fiber of my being. These things happen because of choices that I make. Frequently, I can’t see that I have even made a choice until I am so close to drowning that I hit my knees.”"
I am of the opinion that is just LIFE
“”I believe at these times I am more receptive to what God has in mind for me. This is when I am usually able to find my way out of whatever mess I have gotten myself into.”"
What you see as god’s guidence I see as your own instincts or subconscious, the human brain works on many different levels some autonomous some cognitive and many different levels inbetween
Donna
Back tracking a bit to Sean’s original reply to you Q and my last post to you.
Does your concept of god relate to mine ?
so would you
Define god
Define the afterlife and define salvation
fdq,
Some may not like my answers to your questions, but please remember- I am answering YOU, as you asked, respectfully, and the
answers are ONLY my opinion, for ME, not to shove off on anyone else.
My idea of God and yours might’ve been the same, somewhat, earlier in your life (?)
My idea of God is that he caused/initiated evolution, and thereby gave “Man” the capacity to think out his choices and the consequences thereof.
That being said, I am not “sure” why things are as they are in the Congo, Darfur, Rwanda, EXCEPT people in “power” make choices. Why God doesn’t intervene,NOW, I’m
not sure, but His NOT intervening
doesn’t make me question that for
me, He exists. It could be that He
has chosen not to intervene, as He
did not, for his own people during the Holocaust. Why wouldn’t he intervene,I don’t know, I, personally, have to assume that there is a “greater design” that He has chosen not to share with me.
Salvation, to me, is the “common”(?), accepted explaination- that you accept Jesus
as your Savior, etc., which I’ve done. That being said, I don’t think doing so makes anyone “holier
than thou”. Some think it does, I
don’t. I also don’t think that people who’ve done grievous wrong
can just erase it away by saying they “found God”, etc. On the other
hand, God doesn’t consult me on whom He should believe when they are asking for forgiveness.
Afterlife? Contrary to some opinions I’ve seen while blogsurfing, I, as a Christian, am not spending my life “waiting to die”. I would describe my thought of an afterlife as I’m more comfortable about the eventuality of dying, mainly, because I will get to see my Dad and brother. I’m not sitting around “waiting” for that, I just know that when I get
there, they’ll be there, so it’ll be OK.
I think people that we knew in life
may be in different forms- if you want to be “worm food”, then perhaps you will be that. Or, you could be a vaporous gas-somewhat like a “spirit”. Or we could be in
some sort of “human” form. Maybe no “form” at all, but we will all be together.
Streets paved with gold? Don’t know about that one, I don’t think so, necessarily. Most or even all of our worries,bad health gone, yes,I do believe that.
To be honest, fdq, I pretty much
always, anymore, operate under the assumption that I DO NOT know everything, and often, very little about some things. SOMEONE has to
know “EVERYTHING”, to me, that would be God. Why he does or doesn’t intervene when WE would like Him to, I honestly cant give you a better answer than “that is where ‘faith’ comes in”- you/we/I
don’t get to be The Decider or even
consulted.
Hope I didn’t offend you, I am NOT
saying YOU or anyone else should think like I do- I am NOT saying “YOU ARE WRONG, and I’m RIGHT!” What I think is right for ME, now. I havent seen much to make me change my mind, some things, you just know. For yourself. But that doesn’t make anyone else’s opinion LESS valuable, either. . .
“Why would god care so much about me and my petty squabbles in life yet would let a child starve to death in Africa? Why would my god, who was the definition of love, allow the genocide in Rwanda?”
Hatred. The pathological need for power over another human being. Those are human conditions. They are awful parts of the human condition. I can’t offer up any concrete evidence for why God would not put a stop to these things.
But I do get to watch an amazing group of teenagers educate the adults in their lives and raise funds to provide health care in war torn parts of Africa.
I get to watch a group of 10 and unders teach the adults in their lives about how devastating Malaria is in parts of Africa and that the only ting they need is a $10 net to sleep under to slow the deadly spread of the illness. (They raised enough money to buy 70 nets for this project.)
I know that there are projects that people without religious families work on but these kids inspire me and without religion I’m wondering if I would have the opportunity to be so regularly inspired.
WM
I agree with your thinking- we do not know why God allows “bad” humans to make and control the consequences of their disasterous
choices, all I can chalk it up to is that I personally cannot control
EVERYTHING (been learning ALOT about that last 22 mo!!), and that is where “faith” comes in- yes, it is somewhat passing the buck to God to deal out “justice” to those whom we cannot do so to, for whatever reason, but if you believe in God, sometimes there just isn’t any other answer.
I also agree with you about looking
@ the “but” side of things- such as
the group buying the netting- somewhere in my ramblings, I heard of that project. The CHOICE of finding a way to “accept” an “unacceptable” situation is a stage in the Kubler-Ross grief cycle, it may even be in tandem with the “bargaining” stage, not sure. But finding a way to “accept” something that you/I/anyone else cannot condone is
sometimes the only way to be able to “move forward”.
Yes, for $10. those children are happy, and it often is VERY frustrating for me when I “look around” and see spoiled American kids that have NO idea what it’s like to have NOTHING. There’s seldom a wk that goes by that I don’t see “hogginess” in a particular family I’m familiar with
and wonder to myself “OK, now you have the $2million custom built home. Wouldn’t 1/2 that have been
just as nice, really, and you give the other 1 million to a charitable
cause?” Evidently not.
Donna
I am not sure if you understood my Q
I asked you to define god but you only state a couple of things you believe this entity caused followed by a short list of things this entity is not doing.You then atribute your inability to see sense in this as part of some cunning plan that has merit in being witheld from those most affected.
Then salvation, you started with the staple christian rhetoric and finished vaguely implying that you might, if pushed, consider it slightly unfair that a saved thief and or murderer would be in heaven and an usaved child wouldn’t. Or did I just read too much into that.
Again afterlife? Do you think that really is a definition?
I don’t mean to be pedantic but I believe as these three things are such core beliefs,before we can properly discuss this, we both need to fully understand how YOU veiw and understand these concepts.
@Sean
I hope you dont feel we are hogging you blog.
@fdqpink,
hog away I am flat out at the moment.
The discussion is good. But remember you may not get an answer from Donna, cause she is LAZY
fdq,
I will have to “think” about your
reply (boy, that will be TOUGH!!!)
If the Tiny Mind doesn’t come up with something that sounds pretty smart, I’ll just couch as “Oh, I REALLY had a bad case of Lazy for a few days!!” No, I won’t. I know
you’re asking nicely. You have to
know, that sometimes, my mind (what litte of it there is) races ahead OR “backtracks” to former thoughts, ideas, and sometimes my
conversations sound not quite cogent. That’s probably every written “rant” I’ve done. Oh, well, just pick out what makes sense and go on. Kinda like going to church, ya know????
fdq,
Here it is, for whatever it’s worth, and it may not be that much!
MY definition of God: creator & ruler of the universe. Now here, we can go off on the tangents about why He, IF He IS the ruler, does he allow certain things to happen. I will just have to stick with what I’ve said- “Man” has free choice and God doesn’t consult me, personally. Whom would be dumb enough to do that???
Salvation: Acceptance of Jesus as
MY Savior. Recognizing that He suffered and died for MY sins. Now here we can go off on the tangent that Yes, I probably do continue to do some “minor” sins-tell a fib now then, etc.
Afterlife: there is a Heaven and a
Hell. There may be an “in between”, a “limbo”, I don’t know.
I suppose I believe this because this is the way I was raised, and I
haven’t heard anything yet that proves the contrary to ME. Yes, it
can sound like a convenient way to
couch “justice” for those whom don’t get what they deserve on THIS
plane, but I can’t help how someone
else interprets what I believe,and
I wouldn’t try to force them to change THEIR view on it.
Don’t know if this helps any, again, this may be where “faith” on my part comes in, because for ME, this is what these items mean.
Sean,
About your answer to your journey
to atheism: you’re a far better thinker than I. And not as lazy.
See, you’ve actually thought it out, whereas I believe what I do
because I actually DO believe it, but it sounds/seems “convenient” to
stay as one is, doesn’t it?
WM:
There are certain words that, in life, are “triggers” for me. Three that come to mind are: fundamentalist, “evangelical” and
“charismatic”. When I hear those
words, I admit I’m guily of NOT
LISTENING ANY FURTHER!
When I was a kid, my dad had a good
friend, whom had a major business in Tulsa (OKla.), where I grew up.
One evening, I can’t imagine why,
they guy must’ve invited us to his
church and my mother felt obliged to go, since my Dad did business with him- anyway, it was a Pentecostal-like church- they were
“hooty hollering” during the service, moving around, etc. That cured me- scared the _hit out of me, I had been broughy up as a Southern Baptist, my mother told me
“Be quiet and FACE THE FRONT”. You didn’t talk or whisper, and you didn’t “gawk” behind you, look
around, scoot up & down the pew, if
it was empty other than yourselves.
But, to be fair, the first time I saw a nun in a habit was @ the train station on the way to Indianapolis in 1961- that scared me too, she had a white thing on her head with “wings” sticking out,
not the straigt black “scarf” thing
hanging down that you usually saw
back then. That scared me too. When I was a kid, my parents used to threaten to send me to a Catholic school if I misbehaved. (I
would up going to a private EPISCOPAL school!!) Um, I guess the fact that the Episcopal priests could marry was enough of a difference to make THAT school OK-
Donna
In what way do you see god as ruling the universe ? We live (relatively) on an insignificant speck of dust orbiting a small star one of countless billions spread across infinity,as far as we can tell, Yet you assume that an entity is not only responsible for this, but able to be aware of any discretions against his word on an individual basis. You are convinced that without the acceptance of jesus sacrifice people are condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering.
I submit if a creator did exist then he would be as aware of us, as you and I are aware of the bacteria on an individual ants anus.
Heaven I think is purely wishful thinking are you aware of the other tests you have to pass to get in? It states very clearly that only 144,00 jews will enter paradise.
Hell
You need to read this
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html#TheEnglishWordHell
I am glad to read you reject the fundy, evangelical and charismatic churches.
I have recently watched JESUS CAMP It is the scariest thing I have ever seen.
To watch young children “speaking in tongues” with adults encouraging these delusions is just plain WRONG! You can laugh at the adults doing it but these kids are just brainwashed.
fdq,
Please do not take this “unkindly”,
but it may help to remember that perhaps MY views are somewhat “esoteric”. I have said,
several times, that MY views are for ME, only, to believe. Therefore, I take exception to the
claim that I am “convinced that without the acceptance of jesus sacrifice people are condemned to an eternity of pain and suffering”
if they don’t accept Jesus. I don’t recall saying that. I do believe in (a) Hell, what punishment God metes out is up to Him, again, as I’ve said before, He
does NOT consult me nor give ME
choices or insight to His decisions. Nor does He consult me
as to “what to do with” those whom
accept/deny His Son.
Yes, I have heard the figure “144,000″ mentioned before, apparently some Gentile sects/congretations prefer to think
this numerative amt. refers to themselves. I am “fine” with that amt. I am fine with more or less
Jewish people. The final aggregate
number of any ethnicity is not up to me, I’m not “the decider”. I’m not sure that I was ever questioning that particular amt, etc.????
We could discuss/banter from now until the purported Doomsday, but all I can tell you, personally, is what I already have- what I, personally, believe, is for ME. I have not asked/expected anyone else
to confirm/justify/accept/agree with every single facet of my “belief(s)”. I think that it’s
good you question things/ideas/people, etc., but sometimes, when somewhere just “knows” what is right for THEM, you may want to “agree to disagee”. In truth, after having been “involved” here, I CANNOT say
that any atheist is “wrong”, because, again, God does not have a pipeline to me- and that’s what I
KNOW, for ME. And yes, I am aware
that “along the way”, there are many “tests” to get into Heaven. For ME, one of ‘em is to be more
careful about my judgement of others. FOR ME. I’m probably nominally intelligent in vast realm of things, but believe me when I say, over the last 22 mo.,
I have come to KNOW what is important FOR ME. I can only work on one thing @ a time, and trying
to control someone else’s opinion
and/or judgement of others is something I need to work on. Sometimes, when you get to be an
“old goat”, you just KNOW what is
right for YOU. It doesn’t always mean you’re passing judgement on others if they DON’T believe the same tenets. I just accept the fact that “they don’t” and go on.
I was heartened by your last paragraph, tho, about speaking in tongues, because apparently,we agree. I will, later this wkend, go look @ the link you provided. When you encounter the fundamentalist fruitcakes, over here, that believe in that, they assault you
with the story of the tower of Babel (spelling may be wrong!) in the Bible to justify their belief in tongues. Well, just because THAT story/passage is in the Bible doesn’t MAKE it TRUE. Or, it COULD’VE been true, back then, during the “goat herder” period we’ve referred to. The point is, you either believe in “tongues” or you don’t. FOR ME, I don’t.
Many things can be foisted off on
children to the point that the child is convinced it is “right” or
they are doing it, too. If a child
is able to “do” speaking in tongues, and he/she is not a child
prodigy &/or studying a foreign language, then I’d have to say the
possibility exists that they can speak in tongues. “POSSIBILITY”.
PS, fdq:
RE: laughing @ “adults”, be they
fundy, charismatic, evangelical, or just plain stupid morons: one of my fave. passtimes!! Watching
people that are just plain stupid
&/or control freaks, too. Control freaks, jealous people, oh, boy.
When THEY get what’s coming to ‘em,
I call that “Unassisted Justice”!!
We have a fruitcake group in our family, they’re some kind of fundamentalist- no one seems to know exactly what “denomination”, but now I’m wondering if it might be “Potter’s House” because of the
general age group of the “belongers” and the fact that it seems to be so loosely organized. I refer to ‘em as “The
Commune”. It’s 2 parents (one of them my husb’s relative) and their
NINE innocent kids. The oldest child wants to be a vet or vet tech., she’s been told “No. There’s no money for college and you don’t need college to get married and have babies!” Hmm… after hearing that, the rest of us
just shook our heads…she’s a smart girl, so I’m hoping she figures out she can apply for a tuition loan!!
donna
Sorry dear got caught up with some life, where were we?
What’s amt?
any way I would like to say i don’t think you could say any thing which I would consider unkind unless they were richly deserved.
any way you said
I don’t recall saying that. I do believe in (a) Hell,
but I am afraid you had previosly said
Afterlife: there is a Heaven and a Hell.
that out of the way can I just agree with you over your family fruitcakes, it,s people like that who scare me. Why are so many people especially in the states trying to turn the clock back. More importantly how is it that these women allow themselves to be pigeonholed like that.
fdq,
Yes, I did say I believe in Heaven & Hell, but, as with all my “tenets”, I believe in it FOR ME. That doesn’t mean I think you, or my best friend, or Sean, or
anyone else is going there. My beliefs are FOR ME, I cannot ascribe them to anyone else, because NO ONE has asked me to be in the “decision process” that I believe will be in place for ME.
If I thought you or anyone else I have met here was going to Hell, that would be me, in some minor fashion, STILL trying control things, and due to some personal revelations the last 22 mo., believe me when I tell you, I am NOT “into” controlling things even
REMOTELY in my realm.
Well, I think there are 2 answers to your wondering about why women here allow themselves to be pigeonholed.(And I’m sure it happens elsewhere, too. ..) The first reason is that sometimes women just don’t have enough self esteem, usually due to emotional/mental abuse or physical
abuse. If you continue to live with someone who’s hammering you
weekly about how stupid you are, you begin to believe it, too. They
stay in those relationships because
it’s a “known quantity” to deal with instead of striking out on their own. The 2nd reason is that sometimes, people end up perpetrating the same “control” on
their own children that was used on them, but in a different fashion. The Commune Leader in our
family apparently had a VERY controlling dad (not violent or physically abusive), but we are seeing now that he probably had OCD and controlled every move his kids made. So our thoughts are that unwittingly, his daughter is
doing the same thing with her kids,
by veering off into some fruitcake
“religion” that she KNOWS even her
own parents think is ‘wacko”, but she’s adhering very strictly to it
to shove it in everyone’s face.
So, in short, she’s getting back at
the way he controlled his kids by
doing the same thing, in a different manner, but she isn’t smart enough to figure it out.
I wouldn’t call it a “cult”, they
don’t seem to be telling her to cut
out her non-believing family. But
it’s close. All I know, is that they are not staying here, all 10-12 of ‘em, next time they come thru
town. We will get them a hotel room, we will pay for it, but they are NOT staying here.NO.